marcdeviking wrote:

QUOTE:
"Yeah, Phil Jesus was an Alchemist from the Masonic viewpoint. An Alchemist(Kabbalist) is someone who uses Celestial occult knowledge to shape events, and make positive impact on all peoples. An Enforcer of light, really. Jesus was this!"

This is a Rosecrusian interpretation. If the Church follows this same vision, why are they teaching otherwise (the standard Roman Catholic catechism)?

You know are you still a mason or not? I simply can't understand that you are still a strict Roman Catholic, but in the same time worshipping his worst enemy! And the argument that Jesus and satan are the same I simply don't believe, I don't find it a strong argument also and when you tell this interpretation to, let say South-America, not only one percent would ackownledge and accept this interpretation.

gr. marc

ps. Saints are not gods, they are sacred, but not gods....and did the Scripture not say that man should not involve in magics...?

marc, you are invited to my home in Rome! I will show proof Lucifer is the Creator of everything, including Satan himself. Do you think God created Satan? Or is Satan another force?

The Saints are definately like Gods. Each Saint represents a Greek and Roman God, Godess

God created angels and satan was one of them, but he fell as you probably know. He rebelled against God, that's why he was cast out. Now he is trying to take mankind with him, because some day he will be locked up for ever and at that time the kingdom of God will be established.

Lucifer which created satan? I still see the those as the same. So what means lucifer in your interpretation Christ?

gr. marc

ps. saints are greek and roman gods? They simply don't exist...so I don't know how this is possible then

marcdeviking wrote:

QUOTE:
God created angels and satan was one of them, but he fell as you probably know. He rebelled against God, that's why he was cast out. Now he is trying to take mankind with him, because some day he will be locked up for ever and at that time the kingdom of God will be established.

Lucifer which created satan? I still see the those as the same. So what means lucifer in your interpretation Christ?

gr. marc

ps. saints are greek and roman gods? They simply don't exist...so I don't know how this is possible then

Lucifer - Lux -Luce -Light - The Sun - Healing

How could a devil be a Lucifer?

Healer sounds like Jesus to me

Profanity!

You know I really don't understand you. Could you some day describe where you stand for and what your vision is in al complete survey. I don't care if you do this next month if you want to do this..

gr. marc

marcdeviking wrote:

QUOTE:
You know I really don't understand you. Could you some day describe where you stand for and what your vision is in al complete survey. I don't care if you do this next month if you want to do this..

gr. marc

Thanks brother marc!

I will try to publish something useful. I am a real Catholic and Christian. I don't follow the OTO rubbish either. I study the nature of God and his wrath. He isn't friendly at all and shouldn't be, when so many evil humans exist. I am on the side of God:when he's evil or good, he's always right and just!

Thank you I must sleep now!
Ciao
and PAX

ok, last words....do you believe in his Crucifiction for the love of mankind to take away the sins? Is He also a forgiving God in your eyes?

gr. marc

ps. sleep tight!

Yes I do believe he died for our sins, but that only saves us in this life. When we are resurrected in the next life, we will get what we diserve and thats final.

"Yes I do believe he died for our sins, but that only saves us in this life. When we are resurrected in the next life, we will get what we diserve and thats final."

But, this is the only (earthly) life we have so if He saved us in this life, how can we not be saved in the Afterlife? How can we in your vision also be saved in the Afterlife?

gr. marc

"marcdeviking" i mean you no disrespect, as I appreciate your hunger for knowledge. But to me you show the true problem with Catholicism.

The Vatican holds all the information a human could need as it relates to god and creation. But do they give it to the church to translate to the people? No, they have used there leverage of knowledge to manipulate the people for 2000 years.

A roller costar ride for them but having always been at the core of all established religion since the coming of Jesus Christ, they keep you ignorant. The evil of the Catholic Church is the very fact that you. a follower of the faith, have to ask so many questions.

The fact that so many faithful Catholics would have to join secret societies to gain the type of knowledge that you ask guys like Vivian and Leo for.

It’s the ignorance that we fight against and even our own, Which has us on this journey of illumination. So we fight the Vatican which is only under the guise of Catholicism to stop the ignorance and begin to Enlighten.

Again, I mean no disrespect but you are too skeptical to be a true believer in Jesus. I believe in all your heart you want to know Jesus but you have been programmed to deny who he really is and represents. This is the evil of all established religion.

This is the poison of the church, you love so much. Which the greatest institution is known to man, but at the same time it is the most corrupt. We, who are able to see the darkness in the light and the light in the darkness, will shine the light so soon everybody will be able to see it clearly.

You will finally be allowed to see. We will make your churches answer these questions for you otherwise that place is not a church. This is our struggle with religion and the Vatican that not only influences or controls Catholicism but every major religion the world over.

The corruption of your church is not the only form of religious corruption, so don't take it too personal. Leo also attacks the Jews, Muslims, Gnostics, and even certain Rosicrucian/Templar orders with the same anger, but also he has compassion for all faiths, if at the core is Christ. You must start to see Lucifer/Jesus as one, You must embrace the darkness and the light as one, for this is god. To deny Lucifer’s place is to deny god.

You must use prayer and faith in god to help you figure out what is real or not, what is true and false. You create your own reality based on what you believe. So the harder something is to believe, the stronger the mind control is. However, It’s not necessary to believe, if it can’t be proven, but if it matters to you, you can only try to prove or disprove the facts with facts. Not try to discredit a person so that you feel ok not believing what they have to say. You might say that is a Luciferian tactic. The truth stands on its own even if it comes out the mouth of the biggest liar on the face of the planet.

You seem to need to do a lot more research in the history of Creation, the church, and Jesus Christ before you start asking the questions you are.

You seem to be much in to the study of the way creation works, but not too familiar with the variety of interpretations of whom the uncreated creator is and how we came to be in this existence.

Alright Visionary, I will respond to you.

"The Vatican holds all the information a human could need as it relates to god and creation. But do they give it to the church to translate to the people? No, they have used there leverage of knowledge to manipulate the people for 2000 years."

I do not know what you mean precisely with information? Do you mean the original books of the Bible? Ofcourse they don't give these orignals to the public. If they manipulate the world throughout the ages people you can't know because you also don't have the knownledge to judge over 2000 years of teachings and people.

"A roller costar ride for them but having always been at the core of all established religion since the coming of Jesus Christ, they keep you ignorant. The evil of the Catholic Church is the very fact that you. a follower of the faith, have to ask so many questions."

I don't know what you mean with the rollercoaster, but the reason why I ask so many questions is that I'm a curious person and I like to know a lot and because I do not know too much on the Roman Catholic Church, because it simply takes a lifespan to read the whole Catholic catechism and all teachings, then again I'm a young man so I don't know a lot. So it has nothing to do with the Church on itself, it's just I still don't know enough.

"The fact that so many faithful Catholics would have to join secret societies to gain the type of knowledge that you ask guys like Vivian and Leo for."

I don't know if this is true. I have thought about joining the freemasons some time ago, I (fortunatly) didn't do it, because of the supposed satan worship in the higher levels and the excommunication of the Church. Also Islamic people are in the freemasons like every religion. The only demand is that you have to believe in a creator a Supreme Being.

"It’s the ignorance that we fight against and even our own, Which has us on this journey of illumination. So we fight the Vatican which is only under the guise of Catholicism to stop the ignorance and begin to Enlighten."

You know there are a lot of people who say the Illuminati are the evil ones so who's the evil one, you can't state that easily as you do I suppose.

"Again, I mean no disrespect but you are too skeptical to be a true believer in Jesus. I believe in all your heart you want to know Jesus but you have been programmed to deny who he really is and represents. This is the evil of all established religion."

Are you a christian? Because this is a very big insult for a christian, I know you meant not to disrespect me, but you actually say I am a lukewarm hypocrite in relation to Christ (which is even worse than being anti-Christ I thought). If you are a christian then you are judging me, but you don't even know me! Anyway if I'm a true believer or not that's up to God to judge. No man can judge in this way on each other and man shouldn't do (I know this is easier said than done). If I'm too skeptical, that depends on your interpretation. I'm too skeptical for you maybe...My question what is the true believer in Christ? So what is the true Christ, the way how Leo Zagami presents it? How do you know for sure he speaks the truth? How do you know that it's the evil of all organized religion? Is the option that the Church speaks the truth not an option anymore?

"This is the poison of the church, you love so much. Which the greatest institution is known to man, but at the same time it is the most corrupt. We, who are able to see the darkness in the light and the light in the darkness, will shine the light so soon everybody will be able to see it clearly."

The bride of Christ is the most corrupt institution? Again how do you know? Have you any idea what you are saying? Vivian would not say that the Church is corrupt on the contrary he said it was the most beautiful institution mankind has.

"You will finally be allowed to see. We will make your churches answer these questions for you otherwise that place is not a church. This is our struggle with religion and the Vatican that not only influences or controls Catholicism but every major religion the world over."

I don't quite understand what you are saying here...

"The corruption of your church is not the only form of religious corruption, so don't take it too personal. Leo also attacks the Jews, Muslims, Gnostics, and even certain Rosicrucian/Templar orders with the same anger, but also he has compassion for all faiths, if at the core is Christ. You must start to see Lucifer/Jesus as one, You must embrace the darkness and the light as one, for this is god. To deny Lucifer’s place is to deny god."

Leo himself is a gnostic I suppose, because Rosecrusianism is gnostic/ kaballa (and he was also a muslim). And I still don't see lucifer the same as Christ. Seeing lucifer as Christ is the whole mason and illuminati thing (are they not the ones who want to create a new world order?) . You have to come up with Bibleverses. Actually look at Isaiah 14: 12-15 " You, the bright morning star,
have fallen from the sky!
You brought down other nations;
now you are brought down.
13 14.13-15 Mt 11.23; Lk 10.15.
You said to yourself,
“I'll climb to heaven
and place my throne
above the highest stars.
I'll sit there with the gods
far away in the north.
14 I'll be above the clouds,
15 But now you are deep "
The morningstar is Lucifer here..

And "The King James Bible is correct. Although “Lucifer” is the Latin version of the name, the passage is talking about Satan, not a mere Babylonian king."
just like God Most High.”

I have to admit that morningstar is also being used for Christ in the book of Revelations.

Anyway I say to you, you'd better not be too trustful for the interpretation of lucifer which Vivian gave.

If you aren't a christian I would recommend you start reading the Bible first, because a lot of this subject is about the Bible and ofcourse the Church. So examine, if you haven't done that, the "regular" christian version first.

"You must use prayer and faith in god to help you figure out what is real or not, what is true and false. You create your own reality based on what you believe. So the harder something is to believe, the stronger the mind control is. However, It’s not necessary to believe, if it can’t be proven, but if it matters to you, you can only try to prove or disprove the facts with facts. Not try to discredit a person so that you feel ok not believing what they have to say. You might say that is a Luciferian tactic. The truth stands on its own even if it comes out the mouth of the biggest liar on the face of the planet."

I create my own reality?!?! I haven't created the story of Creation or the whole christian believe...this is not a mere dream. You seem to know best and denounce my faith and vision as rubbish and incomplete, but sofar you haven't given your own "facts" either. Don't say right now, Jesus had children or something like that. Did I discredited a person? If you refer to Vivian, then you have to understand that his vision is quite shocking in official Catholic terms and therefore very disputable if you ask me. I didn't only ask vivian, I also scrutinized him with questions. What do you mean with the Luciferian tactic (off-topic do you refer lucifer to satan right now, because then you are contradicting yourself).

"You seem to need to do a lot more research in the history of Creation, the church, and Jesus Christ before you start asking the questions you are"

First of all, I don't who you are or what your background is, but the same can be said about you. It's just the interpretation which you use. You believe (ex)masons in their vision on Christianity. I'm not saying they can't be right, but they are not quite the regular source you try to get information from in order to know or study about the Church law or her catechism. On the contrary millions of people would agree with me, so the numbers are on my side. That's the whole thing with majority. I'm not saying the majority is always right, but more often they are compared to minorities if you ask me...I'm not saying I'm a scribe or something, I still also have to learn and understand a lot, but I'd rather believe a 2000 years old institution like the Church and billions of believers then certain people like Darwin or secret society people. I'm not saying they can't be right, but they certaintly should be scrutinized very clearly.

"You seem to be much in to the study of the way creation works, but not too familiar with the variety of interpretations of whom the uncreated creator is and how we came to be in this existence."

I don't need and want hundreds of interpretations (that leads to confusion). That's the most beautiful about the Catholic Church, there are no 30.000 denominations like the Protestants have where every denomination claims to be whole Truth. Tradition is also a very important thing in my opinion. And you should have known that the Holy Church is under supervision of Christ, because religious Catholic people are the limbs of the body of Christ. So through centuries Jesus has directed His Church. If you don't believe please read the book of Acts, it will explain you the beginnings of the Church.

Pfff so that's a lot of text, I'm looking forward to your reaction!

gr. marc